Curse

Green Chiken · Apr 15, 2009, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Umm...take Signet of Humility, Diversion, and Frustration. That lil monk will be nothing after casting those!

Neo-LD · Apr 16, 2009, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

OK then, tell me how you intend to save one of the combinations I posted - pick one with shutdown just for the sake of it - in 15 seconds. Try this one: Dev Hammer Warrior, Expert's Focus turret, LC Necro, VoR Mesmer. We can try it quite easily, assuming we find players who don't mind spending the time. Just get four of your guildmates or something. After all, we are assuming competence here, right?

I was pretty sure we hadn't made any assumptions about competence, in fact we've gone out of our way to examine cases with a variable amount of competent teammates and opponents. A competent and coordinated 4 man offense will kill quickly despite the best efforts of a monk. But that never happens in RA, and thats the whole point. Most RA teams will fail if they try to stomp one guy at a time because they are bad / their builds are bad / they have no coordination.

Quote:

I'd like to see why you think hitting the Elementalist with Flare and the Warrior will actually constitute more pressure when in all probability you will do less: the damage you deal is less, or it's cleaned up by Aura of Restoration. You're still concentrating damage because you're looking at two targets, not four. If you are going to lineback against this team ... well, whatever floats your boat.

PS: Everyone goes for the Monk -> he turns around and runs -> shadowstep spike kills off a caster. I've seen that happen often enough. Illustrates something else concentrating damage can do: it tends to leave some ripe targets unprotted, and they might even play a bit more recklessly.

I never said to waste damage on targets that are built like tanks, and never said to kite so far back against teams that can shadowstep, and to be honest its a little aggravating that you are making me account for every single possibility. Use some context and common sense, please.

In any case, I did not see that bit that you quoted from yourself until now, but if you really believe that then our opinions are not that different. Up until now I thought you were lobbying for total focused fire, but if you are lobbying for spreading damage to all vulnerable targets on a team, then, well, thats what I'm advocating for.

I will mention that for several characters (notably Apply Rangers) spreading pressure is easy and takes virtually no time or energy. You'd be crazy not to take the 2-3 seconds it takes to poison everyone and have them all degening while you go about your other tasks. Also, having your team attack different targets, even warriors, does increase pressure because it forces the monk to stop and cast (preventing him from kiting, amplifying the pressure from your teammates that are attacking him) to prot/heal it (spending energy).

Maybe I should write you up a summary, you'd probably agree with me if you saw everything one place.

Jeydra · Apr 16, 2009, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Lol @ how we jumped through hoops and circles just to end up largely at the same conclusion ...

I could write more, but we're rather off-topic though, so back to PnH. Single PnH can almost completely destroy the hexes coming from a single hexer. Actually single PnH can almost counter hexes coming from two hexers as well. PnH kills Migraine builds, Dazed, Crippling Anguish, any hard-to-apply hex. It doesn't hurt some builds, but it removes a whole niche of possibilities. What's more, it's impossible to shutdown with anything except Signet of Humility (or boatloads of luck). While it's possible to argue it's build wars, I think the skill does too much and invalidates too many builds. You can counter lots of builds, eg. most Warrior builds will fold against concentrated melee hate, but melee hate can be cleaned up (with, yeah, PnH) and has its own counters. There're precious few methods to stop PnH from going off.

I say PnH is one of the two most overpowered skills right now, with the other being Lingering Curse, and Foul Feast not too far behind.

audioaxes · Apr 16, 2009, 04:46 AM // 04:46

one strategy that works against P&H is: DONT STACK HEXES
try to hex the entire team with atleast one hex, remove p&h before casting

p&H cant keep up and all you need is a decent team with pressure to exploit a monk using elite hex removal and viola: a huge failure

steel singer · Apr 16, 2009, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Yeah, PnH is good against hexes.. But then again it fails really hard vs direct damage from a warrior or a fire ele.. And it has ONLY patient spirit to self heal, so stop whining if you can't kill a monk like that..

It's like saying WoH is really overpowered because it makes damage useless because it will just heal up all the damage done easily................

JR · Apr 16, 2009, 02:02 PM // 14:02

PnH is a glass cannon. It's ridiculously good against one thing, but sucks against everything else.

Glass cannon skills are bad for the game. They make matches more a dice roll of how lucky you are with your opponents.

Wish Swiftdeath · Apr 16, 2009, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

PnH is a glass cannon. It's ridiculously good against one thing, but sucks against everything else.

Glass cannon skills are bad for the game. They make matches more a dice roll of how lucky you are with your opponents.

Well i wouldn't say that they are glass cannons in GvG, there are seven other players that the PaH can work with to counter the opposition.

In RA it's primarily luck based anyway, even if you're the best monk in the game it's unlikely you'll win if you have a trapper and two wammo's in your team.

FoxBat · Apr 16, 2009, 03:56 PM // 15:56

PnH makes a warrior immune to all shutdown, which is really enough justification in itself.

Neo-LD · Apr 16, 2009, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

PnH is a glass cannon. It's ridiculously good against one thing, but sucks against everything else.

Glass cannon skills are bad for the game. They make matches more a dice roll of how lucky you are with your opponents.

Glass Cannon actually means something else, I think the word you are looking for is "narrow." But otherwise you are correct.

Wish Swiftdeath · Apr 17, 2009, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Glass Cannon actually means something else, I think the word you are looking for is "narrow." But otherwise you are correct.

I would not say it's not that narrow because PaH clears hexes AND conditions.

JR · Apr 17, 2009, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Glass Cannon actually means something else, I think the word you are looking for is "narrow." But otherwise you are correct.

Really depends on how picky you want to be about the definition of glass cannon, because there are a few.

PnH is a stupidly powerful removal, but a very weak elite against anything else. If your opponent has the right build it could well win the match, if they don't it can gimp your backline and contribute to a loss.

Sure sounds glass cannonish to me.

Neo-LD · Apr 17, 2009, 01:55 PM // 13:55

A glass cannon is something with exaggeratedly high offense / low defense characteristics, thus making it very dangerous ("cannon") but very vulnerable itself ("glass"). Historically most non-warrior melees and nuking casters fit into this category to some extent.

I know you are trying to extend the definition to exaggeratedly high usefulness / low usefulness characteristics, but I don't know if that works because

1) "Narrow" already defines the meaning you are trying to superimpose on "glass cannon."

2) PnH actually doesn't have many/any low usefulness situations. Everyone has hexes and conditions of some kind, so it actually turns out to be useful every game as either a hexstack-remover, superfast-blind-cleaner, 2nd cast in a spike save, etc. Is it always as good as a more specialized elite? No. But thats what makes it non-narrow.

It is, however, much too powerful in general, and needs to be nerfed on that basis alone.

Green Chiken · Apr 17, 2009, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Yeah, i agree with everyone, Peace and Harmony needs to be somewhat nerfed. Maybe a longer casting time, recharge time, or less hex and condition remove.

xDementia · Apr 17, 2009, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Did anybody mention it makes Wastrel's Worry a potential 95 DPS skill that really helps in some situations?

kedde · Apr 17, 2009, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Same applies to Shatterstone.
But nobody cares as you're not ever going to get any use out of that.

xDementia · Apr 17, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Sure there are limited uses but it works against people busy with long casting skills like rez sig. It will work as a spike assist when paired with a hammer warrior for example or as we are talking about pnh in ra it also works well with sins kd.

X Cytherea X · Apr 17, 2009, 11:44 PM // 23:44

PnH should only be nerfed if and only if all hexes are nerfed.

urania · Apr 18, 2009, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

PnH is a glass cannon. It's ridiculously good against one thing, but sucks against everything else.

Glass cannon skills are bad for the game. They make matches more a dice roll of how lucky you are with your opponents.

GW is (and to a certain extent always was) like a box of chocolate. You never know what you're gonna get.

the charm of pnh is that the mentality is exactly the reverse of the make-red-bars-go-up woh mentality - you have to prevent damage and pressure from kicking in soon and as much as you can, whilst with woh u let it kick in and heal it. therefore i believe it actually needs veil with it to be even more effective in that aspect. somehow, i think its a nice change when it comes to that... at least it is for me, even tho i disliked it when it was buffed and still think its too good.
also, i dont think pnh is auto loss even vs physicals-only teams. vig+patient spirit as well as breeze make wonders when it comes to killing the pressure.
I think that teams capable of taking down pnh monk teams are basically teams involving eles (be it a spike or ind blast spam, that can consits of spikes too sometimes), turrets (yes, they're still around; and they were the bane of a normal woh monk too, in any case...) and perhaps good balanced teams that can withstand the pressure from a fully non hexed pnh monk team long enough in order to force their pressure through (once the monkie wont be able to spam vig and breeze anymore, but will instead have to resort to pure healing and hex removal). However, if the pnh monk's fully unhexed team couldnt kill fast enough in that ideal time span created by pnh, then it certainly wasnt the pnh monk's fault.

at the end, i agree that pnh is a huge spoil and overpowered, but not unbeatable - with the right approach and some luck one can win.
a nerf on its recharge/duration or cast time looks quite in place.

however, with all due respect, when one meets hex teams carrying mantra of resolve on the mes and pious conc on the necro, one rly is grateful for a skill like pnh. even if the mes has a free hand on the monk monk for a certain amount of time (till the mantra becomes too expensive to use) and pnh is very vulnerable to diversion and shame, mostly cuz of the prevailance of the 1/4 cast spells.

scruffy · Apr 18, 2009, 09:21 AM // 09:21

i vote for a 1 second cast time! that way slow pokes like me can interupt it

Wish Swiftdeath · Apr 18, 2009, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Should be 3/4 imho and maybe reduce the number of hexes removed a little...